Carrizo Plains-Here come the Oilmen Bucko

Discussion about places West of the Rockies
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RL
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Carrizo Plains-Here come the Oilmen Bucko

Post by RL » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:59 pm

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/29204.html

This should be a good battle. I personally love the openness of that little hidden valley. Something about it that harkens back to Early Spanish California Era...

Go Get Em' Greenies!
Rats...Desert Rats...Rats

dj
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Post by dj » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:40 am

Ugh. I haven't been there yet but have seen pictures and it's on my list of places to visit and photograph. This reminds me of the efforts to do more exploration and drilling in the Grand Staircase-Escalante NM, a place I love to visit.

Isn't Carrizo located on the San Andreas fault? How advisable is it to drill for oil/gas along fault lines?

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Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:05 am

Similar thing happening in a few places.

I see where the art crowd sees the demise of Spiral Jetty

greatbasinguide
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Post by greatbasinguide » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:31 pm

Isn't Carrizo located on the San Andreas fault? How advisable is it to drill for oil/gas along fault lines?
can be good,

Also important to note that there are current plans to cover 10,000 acres (I think that is the figure it is huge) in solar panels in the valley

Original Bigfoot
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Post by Original Bigfoot » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:40 pm

Gotta get our energy from somewhere, folks.

An acre or so per oil well, or 10,000 acres of "clean" solar energy, or dam up a few more rivers for hydroelectric, or build some more nuclear plants...take your pick.

I pick: "All of the above".

The only other choice is to keep buying our energy from potential terrorists, and remain beholden to them....And remain at their mercy.

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Post by Tracker » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:23 pm

Original Bigfoot wrote:Gotta get our energy from somewhere, folks.

An acre or so per oil well, or 10,000 acres of "clean" solar energy, or dam up a few more rivers for hydroelectric, or build some more nuclear plants...take your pick.

I pick: "All of the above".

The only other choice is to keep buying our energy from potential terrorists, and remain beholden to them....And remain at their mercy.
X2
'Taint no other way to look at it. No, actually there is one other alternative. We can throw everything away, don a loincloth, and live in caves- or maybe a BLM adopt-a-cabin for a while. :banana:

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Post by Original Bigfoot » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:52 am

Doesn't sound like a bad life...except for the 10 million other folks in California who would need to be doing the same!

How many AAC's are there? 30? 35?

Quick math: Approx. 285 thousand people per cabin...not sure the sanitation situation is going to be able to keep up with that ratio...LOL!

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Post by greatbasinguide » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:20 pm

I dunno. I do not think we need to put the solar plants out in the country. Seems to me there are enough flat roofs just in Los Angeles to contain all possible solar aparratus.

Leave the power generation in the cities where it is needs, save a lot of power poles.

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Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:50 am

greatbasinguide wrote:I dunno. I do not think we need to put the solar plants out in the country. Seems to me there are enough flat roofs just in Los Angeles to contain all possible solar aparratus.

Leave the power generation in the cities where it is needs, save a lot of power poles.
Yes that would make sense. But why do you have to shove that Soapbox under my feet? :lol:


And that’s exactly what I had planned to do, but when I found out they changed the law and I could no longer be paid for assess power I generated. In fact for me adding solar generation to my house in Long Beach effectively would have caused my electric monthly cost to double, unless I could incease my needs 100% to 150%.

I can understand the Utilities not wanting to be a wattage middlemen, who must sell power at cost. But with the millions of acres of rooftops in cities across the desert Southwest, why cover 1000’s of acres of desert just to transport to those same cities. Now with the feds wanting to freeze solar collection on public land, maybe this is a good time to look at current energy rules that favor high energy users over homes that conserve.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/us/27 ... WZuPAK2B8g

There is way too-much money to be made in electric generation, and more to be made transporting it to markets. IMHO some of the plans for new and bigger energy corridors on the table now point to power coming from Mexico. If a large amount of power could be generated over the border the generation cost could be lowered a lot. Without the environmental, and safety costs, plus sending more American jobs out of the country, it would be a win-win for everyone, ;-) maybe not everyone, but surely for the electric power industry.

Man that got long winded. :angry: Thanks for removing that soapbox. :cool: :lol:

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Post by Original Bigfoot » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:50 am

Liability issues will forever halt the widescale generation of solar power in cities. Ever try to get 100 folks to agree on anything? 50? 10?

Try to get millions of property owners to agree to placing panels on their roofs, it just wont happen. No one wants to bear the burden of the new infrastructure necessary, from the solar panels, control boxes, and storage facilities, to the added structure necessary to support the panels themselves and space taken up by wiring, controllers, batteries, etc. Plus, the maintenance of hundreds of individual solar electricity generating systems, spread over hundreds of square miles, would be quite inefficient.

I know personally that solar works. I run my vacation place out in the boonies on solar power, with a backup generator that I havn't used since I increased the inverter capacity to run the microwave oven. (The fridge, one of the highest electricity users in the average house, is a 60 year old Servel that runs on propane.) The place is totally off the grid.

My power system is small, generating about 90-100 watts, and I have three of the highest capacity deep cycle marine/RV batteries for power storage.

I keep the usage small by using compact flourescents and LEDs for light, 12 volt fans, etc.

It's interesting how one thinks differently when has to conserve: I went shopping for a stereo for the place last month, and was looking for one that would play CD's, digital AM/FM tuner, with auxilliary inputs for XM radio, and would do all that with the LOWEST amount of watts used...I found one that uses only 14 watts. Quite the reverse of most home stereos which use 250 watts plus.

Television down there is a TV tuner card in my laptop computer.

That little solar generating system sits there automatically generating and storing electricity all day long, and I've been out there for periods of time up to a week/10 days with plenty of power for lighting, etc. According to an on-line solar power calculator, based on my average usage out there, it could be pitch black for a week before I would run out of stored electricity. I figure if it were pitch black for a week, we would have bigger problems than electricity.

Now if I wanted to do that here at home, with the freezers I use for my food business, and all the trappings of "modern" American life, I would easily need 100 times the generation capacity, and probably 50 times the storage capacity.

Everyone wants more, and cheaper, power, but no one wants it generated in "their backyard".

Well, unless folks change their minds, we're always going to be beholden to outsiders, who don't have a direct interest in the United States. Power is going to have to come from SOMEONES "backyard". We cannot count on Mexico to be our "backyard", where we can hide the generation facilities that U.S. citizens are too prissy to look at, or think about.

Mexico can't even control the violence in it's own border area, where the power generated would have to come into the U.S. It would be the height of folly to count on them for our electricity.

People here in the United States need to start thinking beyond their ideas of "pristine wilderness" here at home, while our demand for energy causes the pillaging of foreign lands and their people to meet our needs and wants.

And what's the real difference between using slaves to provide the energy to do our labor in the early days of our nation, and using slaves today, in other lands, far across the ocean where we can't see 'em, to serve the same purpose?

I contend there is no real difference, except that today it takes a lot more slaves, per capita, to pay for the expenses of all the middlemen.

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Post by Birdman » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:13 pm

Image

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RL
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Post by RL » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:16 pm

Interesting. Wonder why they didn't work out?

Little help on the image post:

Image
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fuel cell company

Post by johnc » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:26 pm

A company in new york is offering fuel cells for sale in industry operations like electric forklifts. They were supposed to be developing a fuel cell that used natural gas and would power a home.

The idea was you would rent the cell and use your natural gas hookup to fuel it.
http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/plug_power/1,1,656.html

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Carrizo Plains.......

Post by Birdman » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:06 pm

RL,
Thanks for the image help. I hit Preview and the photos came up, not on Submit----where did I err?
There is a Chumash pictograph site on the Carrizo, despite early day vandalisim it is still a wonderful place, due in part to it unusual location. When I visited the site some years ago it was not fenced, I understand that is no longer the case. On that same trip there was an oil rig towards the western side of the valley. That must have been in the late eighties or early ninties because the solar paneles were still in place.
Birdman

From Wikipedia:
The remote Carrizo Plain's status as one of the sunniest places in the state was exploited by the solar power industry from 1983 to 1994. This was by far the largest photovoltaic array in the world, with 100,000 1'x 4' photovoltaic arrays producing 5.2 megawatts at its peak. The plant was originally constructed by the Atlantic Richfield oil company (ARCO) in 1983. During the energy crisis of the late 1970s, ARCO became a solar energy pioneer, manufacturing the photovoltaic arrays themselves. ARCO first built a 1 megawatt pilot operation, the Lugo plant in Hesperia, California, which is also now closed. The Carrizo Solar Corporation, based in Albuquerque, NM, bought the two facilities from ARCO in 1990. But the price of oil never rose as was predicted, so the solar plant never became competitive with fossil fuel-based energy production (Carrizo sold its electricity to the local utility for between three and four cents a kilowatt-hour, while a minimum price of eight to ten cents a kilowatt-hour would be necessary in order for Carrizo to make a profit). Another photovoltaic facility was planned for the site by the Chatsworth Utility Power Group, and with an output of 100 megawatts it would have been many times larger than the existing facility. But the facility never got off the drawing board. The Carrizo Solar Company dismantled its 177-acre facility in the late 1990s, and the used panels are still being resold throughout the world.

In October 2007, the Palo Alto company Ausra, doing business as Carrizo Energy, filed an application for a Carrizo Energy Solar Farm on 640 acres adjacent to the previous ARCO site. Instead of photovoltaic cells (as used by ARCO), however, Ausra will use fresnel mirrors that concentrate solar energy onto pipes in a receiver elevated above the ground. The concentrated solar energy boils water within a row of specially coated stainless steel pipes in an insulated cavity to produce saturated steam. The steam produced in the receivers is collected in a series of pipes, routed to steam drums, and then to the two turbine generators. Steam used by the steam turbines is condensed back to water and then returned to the solar field. Electricity from the steam generators will be used in San Luis Obispo county.[14]

The solar field will operate daily from sunrise to sunset. Typical operating hours for the CESF will be approximately 13 hours per day, or an average of 4,765 hours per year

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maybe better technology this time

Post by johnc » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:08 pm

Hope it works this time. One of the problems in the past with the steam solar scheme has been the expansion and contraction of the pipes as they heat and cool. The system springs leaks from this. A few years ago, the Discovery Channel showed a news reel from the 30's which featured a backyard solar steam array that was powering a small (3/4 hp, I think) steam engine. The array looked maybe 12ft square and possibly was pedestal mounted to track the sun.

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